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ndrake
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[Archived] Future Direction of XMB & YOU
Hello All,
This post is about the Total Future Direction of XMB and YOU.
We here at iEntry realize that we may have been slow to get started with involvement in the XMB project and we apologize for that. We do want to take
a leadership role in this project but we need feedback from the Community to determine the future of XMB.
Being that we would like to be involved in the direction of this forum and the support of the XMB project we must have "Your" input as to what is
needed next (in detail) before any major decisions can be made. I want to breath some Real Life into XMB by empowering YOU and helping to made it the
BEST forum software on the net.
We want to hear from Everyone, Developers, Administrator, Moderators, Security people, Support people, Designers, Users etc..
Speak now or forever hold your peace 
Question #1
I want to hear from each person as to what you think we should do for the next release, do we (a) build a new one from the ground up that is scalable
or (b) or do we import UltimaBB as a XMB 2 --- see original post from Jay our IT Manager at iEntry below. He had made this post in the
"Administrator & Moderators Lounge" a little while back. or (c) something else?
Question #2
This one is for the people that will be Contributing to XMB Development and Support in any real way. What would Motivate you the most or be of most
interest to YOU? Please re list these and or other items in order of importance to YOU.
(a) Credits page, etc..
(b) free hosting of your forum and if so how much work is reasonable to request in return?
(c) some sort of mystery prize per month or project or whatever
(d) promote your site in some way
(e) Incentive Program for ( hardware, software, gift certificates, paid memberships to something, etc..) once something is complete, and or a
milestone reached or so many hours contributed etc..
(f) Your ideal/s
Question #3
How can we recruit New people to Contribute in all areas?
Question #4
I know we need a bug tracking program like Bugzilla (http://www.bugzilla.org/), what are your thoughts on this?
Question #5
What Features are needed for the new release/s?
Question #6
What should distinguish XMB from other forum communities/software in the future? What can we do to emphasize that?
Question #7
What did I not include here that should be discussed before we move forward?
We look forward to hearing from each of you.
Feel free to email me direct if you like at "nathaniel@ientry.com" with XMB in the subject line Please.
Thanks and Have a Great Day!
Nathaniel
---
Nathaniel Drake
Director of Business Development
nathaniel@iEntry.com
iEntry, Inc.
2549 Richmond Road, Second Floor
Lexington, KY 40509
Phone: (859) 514-2720
http://www.ientry.com
"Targeted Information for Business & Technology"
=================================
posted on 18-4-2007 at 12:57 PM
Future of XMB
Hello all;
I have read through this thread and I would like to say a couple of things.
First off, I would like to thank Andrew for obviously putting a lot of thought into the future direction of XMB. I especially liked the following:
"I'd like for us to consider polling the users for their favorite features, and we implement the top 5 every milestone. That way we are responsive to
user's needs, whilst not placing an undue burden on our development schedules. However, for every 5 new features we implement, 1 or 2 other crappier
features should be either combined or eliminated. For example, favorites and subscriptions are basically the same thing. Except one sends an e-mail or
u2u to you. Let's combine them."
So that there is no misinterpretation with regard to iEntry's intentions, let me state what our goals are for the project. iEntry has made a business
based mainly on open source software; we would like to contribute what we can back to the community that has helped us for so long. We also run
several disparate boards that we would like to consolidate on a single platform. Lastly, we are interested in driving traffic to our sites through the
XMB project, thus the popularity of XMB is integral to our goals with the project.
As was mentioned earlier in this thread, iEntry is having a difficult time coming up with a developer of the caliber required to take on an integral
role in XMB development which is why we have not made a lot of contributions to the project. We have not stopped trying however, and will continue to
do so. Regardless, even if we were to be able to hire someone today, it would be weeks/months before they would be familiar enough with XMB to make
any significant contributions. We are looking for ways to retain/recruit developers and any suggestions at all would be greatly appreciated in this
regard.
The following are my thoughts on the future of XMB, and if you disagree, please let me know why
I especially like the idea of importing UltimaBB as a XMB 2.0 for the following reasons:
1). UltimaBB started out as a fork of XMB, thus re-importing it back is not as drastic as simply forking someone else's work and rebranding it; it is
more of a merging back of code that could/should have been in XMB all along. Also, it is my understanding, that had things worked out differently this
is code that could have been in XMB already, rather than in a new project. Not to mention, it seems a shame to reinvent the wheel in this regard. I
(personally) see this as an opportunity to make several steps forward in a short amount of time with the side effect of generating interest in XMB
again.
2). The two projects are sister projects in many respects. There are differences between the two code bases, obviously, but there have been a
multitude of fixes/improvements made to UltimaBB that should have also been made in XMB.
3). Regardless of whether UltimaBB is imported or a complete rewrite of XMB were to happen, there will be support issues. It seems that since much of
the framework of UltimaBB was based on XMB, there would be less support issues surrounding a merging rather than a complete rewrite.
4). UltimaBB already offers an upgrade path from the current XMB. This is important to maintain our current user base.
5). This makes for the perfect opportunity to re-skin the aging appearance of XMB. While this may seem trivial, first appearance means a lot to many
people.
Ultimately our (iEntry) goal is to make XMB the most popular, easy to use bulletin board out there.
Please let me know what you think about this and most importantly, why
Thank you all;
-Jay
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rightyo
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re Question 1 - I see a possible issue in using UltimaBB as the replacement xmb - it is new and with the small user base it does have, it is
relatively untested and no final released.
re Question 5,6 - I would like to see a REAL scaleable xmb (think enterprise, not only hobby sites with 10 members), which should have the option via
Admin control panel of mysql replication to another server, great for instant and up to date backup. In addition with using mysql replication comes a
way to further speed up xmb. If people use the option to use replication, then all xmb SELECTS should be done on the slave server and all UPDATES done
on the master server. This is recommended by mysql and has great performance benefits.
I'm not aware of any forums offering this yet, so it could help differentiate xmb from the others.
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ndrake
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I appreciate your interesting reply rightyo. I want it to be a scaleable enterprise level software as well, not sure yet what all it will take to make
that happen.
Thanks,
Nathaniel
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ataylor
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Question #1
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Build from the ground up. I see no point in incorporating UltimaBB, save time, get 1.9.7 out the door and then start on XMB 2. Spending time enhancing
the 1.9.x featureset is pointless. The userbase is small as it is, and I can't see a merger with UltimaBB increasing its size.
Question #3
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Sourceforge? Good vacancy system of there. However you get staff, make sure they are up to it instead of adopting the old policy of "take them on and
see what happens."
Question #4
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That should be decided by the team in my opinion. Whatever is easier for the developers.
Question #5
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Um.. a lot? Other boards have left XMB in the dust... having said that, should XMB become a feature packed piece of bloat? I've said it time and time
again, XMB needs some sort of direction. punBB aims to be minimalistic. vBulletin is targeted at large boards and attempts to please
everyone. SMF tries to be as feature packed as possible while staying free. XMB has no direction other than to be "the most popular board on the
internet." In all honesty, that isn't going to happen, there are already established boards which are far better than XMB. Commercial projects, at
that. So this project needs to have some sort of direction instead of aspiring to a relatively unattainable ideal. Collecting feature ideas in a
seperate thread might be a good idea since many people no doubt have millions of them...
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vanderaj
XMB Contributor
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Andy,
good points all, particularly on the need for direction. However, you should be aware that most of the fuller featured BB's are actually very slow.
Those features come at a cost to the amount of RAM (vertical scalability - the number of concurrent users a single server can handle) and the amount
of in flight MySQL transactions which are possible (horizontal scalability - the amount of concurrent actions the entire web farm can handle before
being saturated). vB needs master / slaves because it is so heavy on the back end DB and is a RAM hog. XMB (and UltimaBB) are actually very efficient
and hold their own with the fastest forums out there.
In my stress testing using ab, I can manage 5-7 pages per second with vB 3.6.5, 30 with XMB 1.9.7, 39 with XMB 1.9.1, and 45 with UltimaBB beta 4 for
view thread with one post, no avatar for the poster, testing as an anonymous user. There is a penalty for unbridled bloat, but careful design can
bring you back some performance.
I'm sorry to say, but the lack of decisions one way or another has led me to move back to UltimaBB as they made the decision to continue finishing
UltimaBB 1.0, which will help me get my forum stable and secure. Whilst UltimaBB was stalled / working on UltimaBB 2.0 rewrite, XMB adopting the old
UltimaBB was my best chance to move forward. As they've moved back to Plan A, and as XMB has not made any decisions, I need to get my forum on a
stable platform as soon as is practical.
I will continue working on XMB 1.9.7 to get it out the door as I committed to you all that I would do that. After that, I have asked the staff area to
consider the role I continue to play in XMB's future. However, please know that I don't have the time I once did, and therefore it will not be as a
developer. I am happy to continue as Security Manager as I can manage that load (4-5 bugs per year) - if the XMB team thinks it is appropriate that I
continue in that role.
XMB needs some decisive leadership, which will bristle a few, but without any leadership, it will flounder and fail. I wish XMB all the very best for
it deserves to succeed.
thanks,
Andrew
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ataylor
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On the points about resources consumption: fair enough. While XMB is very efficient in that area, I doubt that will attract users (at least initially)
to XMB. Only people who can't afford the hardware that the bigger boards require. Additionally, I imagine other lightweight boards are probably just
as efficient (if not more so) than XMB.
With reference to your role - I hope you stay on as Security Manager at least.
As for leadership - I agree. Who can fufill that type of role is the key question there.
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netchicken
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Question #1
I am not up on the benefits of either, but don't know if the time involved in building new from ground up is worth the output at the moment. XMB works
now.
Sure there are far better methods out there I suppose, but that will make a long delivery time and produce a board that will still take ages to debug
losing customers and good will.
Don't lose sight of your audience. 90% of users will never have a big board. 90% of people who start a messageboards doubt its will ever be really
big, (if they can define "big" as we mean "big") so its not on the radar. (90% of stats are bull****)
Those who deliberatly plan for a big site, are the sort who will buy in their software and get it customized. That there are some big boards using XMB
says more to the high quality and work of the webmasters, and its probably only in the 1-5% of users.
Question #3
I think the problem here is that its the same old, same old. Its a message board. Gee wizz, there are a 100 other types out there all competing for
developers and users.
If you want new blood then aim for something new that people get the passion for. We have great coders here, but what are we doing? Just playing
catchup to the rest of the net? Focusing on coding that few will appreciate? (make it faster) How about developing new ideas that differentuate xmb
from the mass of others. Then you get followers and build a community.
At the moment you are wanting people to move from one industrial city to another industrial city. Its still all smoke and work.
Question #4
I know we need a bug tracking program like Bugzilla (http://www.bugzilla.org/), what are your thoughts on this?
Of course
Question #5
What Features are needed for the new release/s?
http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=3710 here
Question #6
What should distinguish XMB from other forum communities/software in the future? What can we do to emphasize that?
When you build a messsagebaord you compete with every other message board. Build a 4 door people moving sedan, and its the same as every other 4 door
people moving sedan.
There are differing audiences for boards.
Some want a fast board - for them xmb seems already fast.
Everyone wants a secure board - I 'think' we are doing OK there.
Webmasters want a CMS system that is SEO'ed. Havn't got that so far.
Where are messageboards now? Are our ideas from the 1990s? I think so. Its the same old same old, table based boards with the same features as every
other board. The net is moving on. can't we look to the future and program for that?
What is the future. CSS, ajax, non boxy design, functionality over bling. web2. Interactivity -rating posts, voting posts, easy integration of
graphics, videos, music etc
Question #7
What did I not include here that should be discussed before we move forward?
I wrote a big article (like this rant) in another thread on the future of XMB that must have been moved. That outlines what I thought would be the
future.
You need a board that gets indexed well in google. You need a system that looks modern, not a table throwback to the 1990's. You need to talk about
what the future of the web might hold and what are the next gneration of community programs looking like and acting like.
Messageboards in this design are the past, Digg, Reddit, a million other cms systems are the future. Don't become the appendix of the net fighting
other boards for a smaller and smaller user base. Keep the engine and rebuild the interface to match the future of the net.
I got more ideas if you want them
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ataylor
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| Quote: | I think the problem here is that its the same old, same old. Its a message board. Gee wizz, there are a 100 other types out there all competing for
developers and users.
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Yes, is the same old, same old. But its a message board and I'm hoping it will continue to be a message board. Your ideas essentially end up with it
turning into a full CMS, which essentially invalidates your view of being original; the CMS market is just as saturated as message board market. Many
of the features you mention (CSS, ajax etc.) are already integrated into most message boards. As is the rating system.
| Quote: | | Digg, Reddit, a million other cms systems are the future. |
Digg serves a very different purpose to what a message board does. Again you mention CMS; this isn't a CMS, its a message board. Turning it into a CMS
is hardly going to make it stand out. They aren't the future, they are established systems that have been running for a while now.
The idea of SEO is a good one, but you seem to want it to be the main focus of development (in the post here and in the other thread you mentioned).
SEO helps users find the board. Fair enough. But interactive functionality is paramount.
I myself think a modular system would work best. Have a simple, base package which users can build upon with modules. Makes it flexible to a users
needs and would certainly stand out from the crowd.
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netchicken
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I have to admit I come across as a little SEO obsessed.
But I have seemed to have hit on something that works, and i just want others to see how handy it is as well. Stock xmb is appallingly indexed in
google, yet can so easily be changed.
As a webmaster who has been trying to focus on google for years and finally succeeding, despite my poor coding skills, I think this is differentuating
the board enough that it can be a selling point for xmb.
I am getting between 3000 and 4000 hits a day on the board in total. Most from search engines, and people who come via them.
Here is last months search engine stats
Google 12,670
Google (Images) 9735
Yahoo 442
AOL 228
MSN 210
Unknown search engines 140
Many more - total of 23,560 hits on 23,358 pages for April from the search engines alone
What I am trying to emphasise is that xmb is indistinguishable from other messageboards, not even on the radar for many, and needs to stand out more
with tools that attract users.
Tools such as automatically generating sitemaps, built in RSS, being able to generate vanilla html pages to better hold old content (like here), showing the beginning part of the thread so people can read it.
Things I would like to add, but can't at the moment, till I learn more php, such as voting up and down threads, auto thumbnailing of images, members
video, and image galleries, applauding members posts with a quick ajax messages, so many ideas, that few boards seem to have.
I think a modular system would also be great. I used Gallery2 for a while, and you updated and added features with only click by installing modules.
Its a great easy to use system with many types of modules to use.
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ataylor
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Indeed, SEO would be a good thing, and I believe it should be implemented into XMB 2; however, features such as image galleries/applauding members
posts are, in my opinion, bloat. Hence a modular system would solve it; you could install modules with those features, I could choose to keep a less
enhanced featureset.
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Passthru
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Dont know half of what you all are talking about, but ease up on yourselves, Personally, XMB is a very nice board, it is direct and simple to use..the
reason I use it is that it does look different than those "Fancy" boards that look like they was designed for flair rather than user ease.
It is a board for talking and communicating 24/7..as far as making it grow, why all the fuss on google and the other search engines? to me 90% of
the fun is trying to get that next member, I could care less if I have 50,000 members or 100 members, as long as I got them by enticing them to join
on account of content, not the fancy looks.
Design a very secure forum software, make it very easy to enhance such as good hacks, and away you go. to me it seems XMB would be just as popular
as the other boards if the same energy was put into getting the word out as there is spent talking about how it looks and how fast it is. Example: I
didnt even know about XMB until I got to looking at the bottom of another forum i visit to see what it was called..i clicked that link and seen it was
free, and bammm, I was going to have my own community..spend a little time pushing the software and less time trying to make it into the "other
stuff". I have seen a lot of boards over the last 8-10 years, and XMB is by far the easiest to figure out for the new member, be proud of it.
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AI Advanced
XMB Contributor
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Passthru
Dont know half of what you all are talking about, but ease up on yourselves, Personally, XMB is a very nice board, it is direct and simple to use..the
reason I use it is that it does look different than those "Fancy" boards that look like they was designed for flair rather than user ease.
It is a board for talking and communicating 24/7..as far as making it grow, why all the fuss on google and the other search engines? to me 90% of
the fun is trying to get that next member, I could care less if I have 50,000 members or 100 members, as long as I got them by enticing them to join
on account of content, not the fancy looks.
Design a very secure forum software, make it very easy to enhance such as good hacks, and away you go. to me it seems XMB would be just as popular
as the other boards if the same energy was put into getting the word out as there is spent talking about how it looks and how fast it is. Example: I
didnt even know about XMB until I got to looking at the bottom of another forum i visit to see what it was called..i clicked that link and seen it was
free, and bammm, I was going to have my own community..spend a little time pushing the software and less time trying to make it into the "other
stuff". I have seen a lot of boards over the last 8-10 years, and XMB is by far the easiest to figure out for the new member, be proud of it.
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Amen.
Keep it fast & simple, the XMB way. To be honest SEO would be a good thing, but don't focus on it. The main reason I started to write my own
forums for my personal websites is because I didnt feel like coping with XMB's scripting anymore, so I'd aim on writing a secure & ultra fast code
base, extendable with several modules.
One other thing I think we need to focus on, is proper templating. I think we can cut the page size in half by simply using divisions and proper CSS.
Use tables only when necessary (for displaying tabular data). This would make theming even easier. And on the other hand for users it'll be much
easier to start modifying their own board, since it makes sense and is clean standard HTML. Unlike the current templates, which are complete
abracadabra for the average user, because theres no indentation at all, let alone that most elements are inlined styled.
So in short: Secure & extremely fast modular code base, with a design made for sppeeeeeeeeeedddd (wooo!), that being (X)HTML (divisions, mainly)
and CSS.
Tim Kurvers
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ndrake
iEntry Staff
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I Greatly Appreciate every one that is taking the time to help direct the future of XMB.
The reason I asked all that I did was that we intend to have real focus and direction for XMB going forward and it is not only wise, but critically
important that we find out what everyone thinks as to the best course.
Please post your thoughts here if you have not yet.
Thanks and Have a Great Day
Nathaniel
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viola
Senior Member
Posts: 181
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| Quote: | Originally posted by netchicken
Don't lose sight of your audience. 90% of users will never have a big board. 90% of people who start a messageboards doubt its will ever be really
big, (if they can define "big" as we mean "big") so its not on the radar. (90% of stats are bull****)
Those who deliberatly plan for a big site, are the sort who will buy in their software and get it customized. That there are some big boards using XMB
says more to the high quality and work of the webmasters, and its probably only in the 1-5% of users.
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Even if there is only a 5% of big boards using xmb, it is obvious that the rest 95% will still intend on making a big board (even if that never
happens)
This intension, may prevent people from using xmb.
I have serious problems with my xmb board. All hosters I ve been, hardly accepts me cause of huge ressources my xmb needs, situation that gives a lot
of problems in other clients.
I ve tried shared, vps, semi-dedicated and now dedicated server. Everywhere problems.
I run 20 sites and my xmbsite has given me the worst headache of all.
I m not an expert. Dont know how hard is to make things better. But when I see SMF using so little resourches and hanlding a lot of users online in a
better way, (and smf is a board i hate)
then why cant xmb go further?
I believe you should have ambitious goals.
Anything less, will dissapoint possible webmasters of xmb.
Regards,
Nikos
PS. SOrry for my english.
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TannerJ
XMB Contributor
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I think we all agree that we want XMB to stand out from the crowd. In many ways it already does. It's fast and simple, it's not bloated, it has a
pretty clean look (disregard the html for now, i'm talking the rendered output), and it has one hell of a supporting userbase.
I would like to see XMB become to message boards as drupal is to CMS's. drupal is lightweight and easily configured & customized out of the box.
It's scalable & powerful, but not bulky and bloated.
I do agree that SEO should be an important factor in our future developments. We should make it so XMB powered boards are better indexed by google and
search bots. This would be of major benefit to everyone running XMB, as it would increase their visibility on the web, which in turn would increase
the visibility of XMB to everyone else.
Another important move would be to make XMB easier to customize for board admins in terms of appearance. Something XMB really lacks is a good template
system. However, I think we can work around that template system and still be able to offer a more customizable solution. XMB already supports
per-theme stylesheets. That combined with an updated base template set would make XMB much easier to customize. I'm actually working on this right now
for XMBMods.com, and I would be more then willing to contribute this to the core XMB project. (You can take a look here: http://www.xmbmods.com/X2/)
The biggest thing I saw about drupal was how modular it was. The code base is designed in such a way that you don't have to hack any core files to add
new functionality, and the community has excellent extension support. If you look at drupal.org and browse around their modules, you'll see that every
module on there is home to not only releases and info, but support, development, and discussion as well. Every module project is essentially a
software development hub of it's own. I would love to see improved support for extending XMB, not only in making it easier to extend XMB, but make it
easier to develop & support these extensions.
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amichan
New Poster
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I my self use a very popular software called invision power board but would like to use some thing that is free like your system.
A few features I would like is on the main forum view if it showed the last post in the last pots section instead of just the last poster.
A few other things are the ability to easily add bbcode so you can add things like youtube and google videos as this is some thing IP board has and I
find it very useful.
Another very nice feature is gender in the profiles, I find that really handy as I seem to a lot of times call people female when they are male, maybe
thats because I am female my self.
One of the main reasons I am looking at xmb is it worked with a portal/cms/ web site making script called ocPortal, one of my favorite scripts and one that is packed full of features so you do not have to have a forum with lots of features cuz that
system will take care of that for you.
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ataylor
Experienced
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Could we set up a IRC channel? Would be quick to do, just go and register one on freenode.
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Aerosmith
Experienced
Posts: 556
Registered: 4-12-2002
Location: Earth
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OK here ya go....
1) KEEP IT SIMPLE. KEEP IT CLEAN! The major reason I use XMB over all the other forum packages is that it is simple and easy to use. i don't have
to try to set up all kinds of extra fluuf and junk to get what I want. After all its forum software. I don't need calendars and all kinds of other
non-related stuff!
2) Don't go Microsoft on us and change things simply for the sake of being able to say you changed something. If it ain't broke don't fix it!
Nothing is worse than installing a new upgrade to a great piece of software only to find out that 99% of the changes were nothing more than fluff and
eye candy that add darn near 0 additional real world usability but comes with all kinds of extra overhead etc.
3) If you do choose to ad in stuff like calendars and such that are not really realted to forums at all, make it all modular so that we don't even
have to install these features as opposed to having all the extra junk installed but disabled.
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Aerosmith
Experienced
Posts: 556
Registered: 4-12-2002
Location: Earth
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-something
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ataylor
Could we set up a IRC channel? Would be quick to do, just go and register one on freenode. |
I have a stand alone IRC server that y'all can use if you want. Just say the word and I'll give y'all the details.
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vanderaj
XMB Contributor
Posts: 1021
Registered: 10-17-2002
Location: Columbia, MD, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Furry
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| Quote: | Originally posted by viola
I have serious problems with my xmb board. All hosters I ve been, hardly accepts me cause of huge ressources my xmb needs, situation that gives a lot
of problems in other clients.
I ve tried shared, vps, semi-dedicated and now dedicated server. Everywhere problems.
I run 20 sites and my xmbsite has given me the worst headache of all.
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Nikos,
Some versions are better than others, particularly with large forums. There is a distinct perception that XMB is "heavy" on MySQL resources, and
compared to simple forums like SMF, it is. But compared to pigs like vBulletin, XMB is very lightweight.
We've done some performance work in UltimaBB for larger boards like mine. I was hopeful that some of this could make its way back here, but instead
1.9.7 is about 25% slower than 1.9.1 with no obvious reason for it. I'm still looking at the moment.
Andrew
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